Episode 2

Race and the Marketplace

Transcript

Speaker1: Welcome to the Q Talks podcast as we launch a mini series exploring critical issues of race and systemic injustice in business. I am Kevin Stevens, dean of the Quinlan School of Business. Like you, I am sickened by the killing of George Floyd and the long history of systemic racism and violence of us directed towards the black community. I have spent much time listening and reflecting on what the Quinlan School of Business and I can do to move the world toward greater social justice. This podcast miniseries is just part of a list of concrete, measurable steps Quinlan has taken. This miniseries centers on the perspectives of black members of our community to explore critical issues. Please join us in these conversations and other Loyola and Quinlan initiatives as we seek to help end systemic racism.

Rick Sindt: Hello, my name is Rick. And today I'm joined by professors of Marketing Akon Ekpo and Jenna Drenten, Akon. And Jenna, thank you for joining us.

(Both): Thanks for having us.

Rick Sindt: Akon, I'd like to start with you and ask you to share your perspective of the current events that we've been watching unfold over the past couple of weeks.

Akon Ekpo: So I can see the events unfolding from the standpoint of marketplace, right? Where a marketplace is a setting of social interactions and networks of exchanges that kind of feature this wide range of valued assets and resources. And I see what's happening as a marketplace with multiple actors in which an exchange that happens between people can very quickly turn into some type of traumatic event. And in this case, we've been seeing multiple killings of black consumers. Most recently, we have George Floyd and what was happening in Atlanta as well, killings by the police as market actors. And this kind of represents the micro-aggressive and egregious behaviors that market actors kind of in that that I see as steeped in racism. And so with George Floyd's case, it represents not just one single violent event, rather it's an accumulation of a set of traumatic events from Emmett Till to Eric Garner, Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown, Tamir Rice, Breonna Taylor. This list goes on and on. This event is representing all of these accumulation of events. And it's something about this particular killing that represents the straw that broke the camel's back, kind of thinking about like the previous episode that starts talking about these events. You know, there's a mention of the straw that broke the camel's back. And what we're seeing is there's something about this particular trauma that's changing the conversation from those people's problems to this is our problem. This is a collective global problem. And there's something that's making the discourse not just about one particular incident. It's looking at the broader issue of systemic racism.

Rick Sindt: Before we dive into your research, I'd like to ask you to offer a definition of how you use the word marketplace, because I believe it appears to be broader and deeper than what most people might assume. It seems to go beyond the exchanging of goods or advertisement.

Akon Ekpo: Right. And so when we talk about marketplaces, we typically are thinking about transactions that occur within a store or a retail setting. But as a marketing scholar we kind of see the marketplace as this socially constructed field of social interactions where there's some type of valued asset that's exchanged for a resource. So when we think about marketplaces in this traditional sense, we're thinking of a product that holds some type of value and is being exchange for resource. And in most cases, it's monetary, right? When I think of marketplaces, I'm thinking in a broader sense in terms of what's valued, the assets that are valued. So perhaps the asset that is valued is around power. Sometimes it's around knowledge. There's different types of marketplaces and the assets that are being exchanged and the resources that are available to imbue those assets with value might change. So in the case of what's going on, in the broader sense, the marketplace is much broader than just an exchange of products and money.

Rick Sindt: Jenna, do you use a similar definition in your own research?

Jenna Drenten: Yeah. I think when we think of the marketplace, I agree with Akon that it tends to be. We think of, oh, this is just a store that I shop at or an online site that I go to. But as consumer sociologist and when we think of consumer culture more broadly, it's all of these different actors that are involved in the marketplace. So it could be beliefs and attitudes that we want to consider. It could be macro level issues. So maybe how society level beliefs are. So here in America that we have this idea of sort of pull yourself up by your bootstraps and you can be whatever you want to be, whether or not that's actually true for all consumers in the market, which we're coming to realize more and more that it's not the case that those beliefs shaped the marketplace. So when I think of marketplace in my research, it's not just a physical location or an online store. It's all of these different elements that come together to shape the marketplace more broadly. And all of the individual consumers, the retailers, the brands, the lobbyists, the government, actors, all of these different entities that make a market, a market. So I think it's definitely more of a broad perspective of what the marketplace is, which has been interesting to view many of these corporations coming forward with statements on Black Lives Matter or changing their products that they're going to offer. For example, Band-Aid just announced that they will carry inclusive skin tone Band-Aids, which have been demanded for years and just not profitable for the company on their terms. And now suddenly they decide they would like to do it. So those sort of things are part of the marketplace. It's not just the products, but these beliefs and attitudes that underlie the products that are out there, the people that are shopping and the values that we have.

Rick Sindt: Akon Your research uses the framework of cultural trauma theory. Would you mind spending a moment to explain to us what this framework is and how it explains social movements and the political actions we're seeing today?

Akon Ekpo: Sure. So cultural trauma theory pretty much states that in order for us to see social movement or political action, there's this process that kind of have to occur and this process kind of stems or is sparked by some type of traumatizing event that pretty much shakes a group of people to the very core of their existence or their sense of self. And what this shattering of identity does is it changes the way in which we as consumers, as people within the marketplace, begin to discuss and describe a particular trauma. And it moves that trauma from negative events that sort of happens to those people or a very pointed group of people to happening to all of us. In order for this discussion to kind of shift, it requires that people starts to see the broader issue as affecting them, as well as those who are traumatized. And it's basically making this claim to a trauma where these events that basically kind of shatters one's identity. There's a sense of loss that occurs. And so these claims to this trauma will help shape the practices that we see or in some cases, a push for policy changes that can ensue. If it's happening to us and not just a group of people, those people that this happening to, all of us are more inclined to push for change, to push for a resolution. And so because there's this sense of solidarity, this collective, 'we' becomes broader and more forceful to being able to push resolution to the problem that we are experiencing.

Rick Sindt: So I'm wondering is there a like identifiable pattern of events or behaviors that you can see that take something from the collective trauma of a smaller group subset of people to a larger solidarity culture trauma like we're seeing today? Or is it something that ends up being more spontaneous, like the straw that broke the camel's back that you mentioned earlier?

Akon Ekpo: So. Yes and no. So. How do I say this? What has happened in the marketplace is that it's not that these traumas didn't exist before. They just were not being recognized as something--there was no claim to it in terms of people's roles, their individual roles in the enactment of that trauma. So, for example, Jenna mentioned the example of the Band-Aids. And the colors, the different skin tone colors of the Band-Aids. This has been something that has been voiced over and over for years. And in fact, there have been smaller companies that have basically taken it upon themselves to actually hear those voices and be able to market a product that actually resolves the issue of what is flesh tone. But now has become an opportune time to actually enact that for this brand when in actuality this has been occurring over and over and over and over. So. What we're starting to see in this particular incident. And I can't really pinpoint what it is at this moment. But there's something about this incident that has triggered something to say that, you know what? There is a bigger issue happening here. And it's this attachment to the bigger issue, the broader issue, and being able to recognize that it's not just, oh, this is a one-off situation, because before you can explain away a situation, oh, this person resists it or, you know, that's not what happened. These are validations or micro aggressive type of behaviors that happen in order to be able to explain away what we're seeing. But there's something that occurs that kind of sparks within people to see that, look, this is a broader issue. This is bigger than just this one off. You cannot explain away. And I think what's happening now is that there's no room for explaining away what has been talked about for years and years and years.

Jenna Drenten: I would agree with all of that and add that one of the things the sort of that idea of the straw that broke the camel's back is there's already so many straws. They're all they're all piled up. And so I think that's a great saying because it's representative of what's happening in our culture right now, that there are already all of these traumas, years, centuries in our country, of traumas that have been built up. And now it's becoming this watershed moment where not only police brutality can be addressed in the way that systemically it needs to be, but also we're maybe at a higher level where we can recognize how all of these different systems work together. So the Band-Aid example is a great one. The Dancewear company, Capezio just announced that they will start selling various skin toned ballet shoes, which seems maybe kind of frivolous or silly to someone, like, why would we need this? But it systemically prevents people of color, black ballerinas, from entering this market, from entering and moving up because they have found a way to get around it by using hair dye to dye their ballet shoes. But that doesn't mean it's okay. That doesn't just because it's working. So the same thing with the Band-Aids. These inclusive companies have entered the market, smaller companies, because they saw this. They heard the voices as a concept. And now it's just these bigger companies are realizing, oh, we actually need to make some changes. And systemically have been preventing participants in the market, consumers in the market from fully operating in the way that they deserve and need to need to. So it is it's the straw that broke the camel's back. I'm not sure what it is. It's not like a count, like, oh, 20 times and we'll have this watershed moment. So I agree that I'm not really sure what the scenario is. And it could have something to do with just so many so frequently on top of a pandemic, on top of just something that is also overwhelmingly affecting the black community and communities of color in our nation. So it could be sort of this trauma on top of trauma, but I think that it is that straw that broke the camel's back because there are so many other straws already on it.

Rick Sindt: Yeah, absolutely. I've been thinking a lot about how I don't know that we would be able to sustain this kind of pressure and activity if 40 million people were not out of work. I think like we in some ways the general populace has been like liberated from wage slavery. And so they're able to act in pretty profound ways like we're seeing.

Jenna Drenten: I think that in America we value capitalism, we value work and labor. And so the idea to have sustained protest and therefore have to miss work could be a preventative measure. I mean, we see that when we have voting day on Tuesdays and people have to rearrange their schedules, get childcare and make sure that they make it to the polls when the polls are open and these different lines that they have to wait in and in other countries, the entire voting day is, you know, the country is basically shut down other than people going to vote because it is a right in those countries. Whereas here we definitely value work. And so being able to protest is potentially a side effect of people being out of work for this terrible pandemic and so many layoffs and high unemployment numbers and having not the privilege to protest, but sort of the liberty being saved, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Akon Ekpo: Having the space to be able to protest and to and to protest at such a prolonged period of time. Because when you think about it, you know, protests that have occurred under different circumstances were not, it's always in between times, in between work times when you can fit it in. And so, you know, we're in what's almost a perfect storm, right? We have the perfect setup by which people can be able to protest and to be able to say, look, I'm going to continue to call attention to this. And the more you call attention to it, the more it begins to mobilize, you know, people to be able to to say, look, this is a bigger issue. And so it gives people space to be able to do that where they probably would not have had that space before.

Rick Sindt: Moving back to Marketplace Trauma, you've identified two sources or modes that that collective trauma can take place, which are Marketplace to Omission and Marketplace Commission to explain these to us, how do they function and how do they harm the outgroup of consumers?

Akon Ekpo: Okay. So when we're talking about something like marketplace commissions and commissions, we have to recognize that there's going to be in groups and outgroups, right? So the in-group or those who share some type of identity in which that identity is privileged and given the benefits and advantages of having that identity. And then there's the outgroup that does not possess that identity and therefore are deemed as unworthy of being able to capitalize on any benefits or advantages or privileges. So there's this difference between these two sets of groups. So when we talk about marketplace omissions, we're talking about behaviors by marketers that chronically fail to engage, intervene, acknowledge, or even include the experiences and diverse perspectives of those folks who are part of the outgroup. Okay. So an example would be like if a grocery chain pretty much has a you can only speak English policy that they mandate on their employees. And so employees must only speak English in the presence of customers whenever they're discussing anything that deals with work related tasks or subjects. But then there are customers that are non-English speaking that the employees can now no longer be able to service because there's this mandate of English only in the workplace when you're on, on the clock and when you're dealing with customers. So what omissions do is that it fails to account for the needs and experiences of non-English speakers, and this failure basically fails to acknowledge their presence. It fails to recognize their value in such a way that makes them invisible in the marketplace. And so it ignores the needs and the needs of people who are part of immigrant communities by having something like that. On the other hand, you have marketplace commissions, which are these behaviors that explicitly misrepresent, mistreat or even essentialize the expressions and perspectives of diverse individuals. And in this situation, these groups are included, but they're misrepresented, they're mistreated in stereotypical and discriminatory and pretty much unethical ways. So an example would be a professional white man who's in his forties, but he has some type of social identity marker that places him in the outgroup. And in this case, he can be blind, right? And he goes into the marketplace. He's blind, he's trying to complete a transaction. But the store attendant basically deliberately gives him incorrect change for a $20 bill. And the only reason that it's called out is because a customer notices it, witnesses it and says something. So in this case, Sam is mistreated by the marketer, by the attendant in an unethical way. The person is included, but they're mistreated in the marketplace. And what this essentially does is create an environment that pretty much cultivates trauma. If you are aware of a situation in which you're you're deliberately mistreated, you begin to distrust that environment, that marketplace. And so if you can no longer trust the company, which is what brands are built on. They spend millions of dollars to be able to get people to trust their brand and to prefer that brand over their competitors. Well, if you feel that you are there's no trust between you and that brand, then you begin to feel excluded. You begin to feel like you're going to be mistreated. And so now it's no longer something that I want to do is creates this breach, these traumas. So what marketplace omissions and commissions do they function as actual traumas, right? There are these events around which those collective traumas try to kind of transpire that says, hey, for a particular group of people, this is what systematically begins to occur in the marketplace.

Rick Sindt: Yeah. I think by now I hope we've all heard stories and experiences like the ones you just shared. Specifically thinking of black people I think about then-state Senator Barack Obama talking about being followed around a department store or it recently coming out that anthropology refers to black customers as Nyx and uses this coded language to request that employees follow certain customers around to larger things like redlining. There's just so many sources of trauma that people in outgroups can experience in the marketplace. How have you found that they cope with these experiences? How do they maybe find a way out or a way around?

Akon Ekpo: So more generally. Consumers kind of cope with these experiences through what was known as exit voice loyalty. So exit being that they try to leave the situation or they decide that they're no longer going to patronize an establishment, or they decide to just leave the market altogether. And it's very rare that it's that you're able to do that. But it's something that does occur. Voice being that those formal complaints or even sometimes informal complaints where they're trying to call attention to the situation through corporate management or even word of mouth. And then loyalty, which is an interesting ordeal because it includes these attempts to try to prove worthiness. So I'm going to show you that I can actually afford this luxury belt, right? And then go about and perhaps buy the belt just to show or prove a point to the salesperson that might have ignored them or made some type of stereotypical comment or judgment against them. What makes this particular kind of tactic interesting, is that it's one of those where it can also be seen as the situation can be seen as a one-off situation where the person doesn't necessarily attribute what's happening to bias or discrimination or anything like that. And so it's one of those I'm going to give you another chance to kind of redeem yourself. And then also, loyalty can also occur when there's no other choice. If we think about something like ComEd, right? Before all of the deregulation and energy, it's found out that comment charges people in black and brown communities much higher rates than in other communities. What other choice did you have other than to continue to pay your ComEd bill? You're not going to just decide I'm done, right? You might call attention to it, but the end result is that there's loyalty as well. However, in this more digital world, we're seeing these offshoots of this form of voice loyalty, which my research kind of goes into, like the use of digital resources in most cases, the Internet to be able to kind of circumvent or to try to rectify some of these issues. So what I've found is that sometimes people use online shopping in particular to kind of prepare themselves for a battle offline, right? They're going to confront the situation. They're going to acquire the skills and knowledge that they need to be able to handle the types of discrimination or mistreatment that they get in a person-to-person or face-to-face situation. So they go online, they go into forums and chat rooms and they're asked they're conversing with others about, okay, I need to be able to handle this. So I need some suggestions on what I can do for the next time because I know this is going to happen again. Right? Then there's people who, due to different circumstances, various types of circumstances, they'll seek refuge online. So they recognize that what's happening is some form of bias, some form of mistreatment in the marketplace. And rather than try to deal with it at that point in time, they're just focused on I need to get, you know, X, Y, Z, some products, some service. I need that completed. And so they'll decide to leave and just go and finish out their transaction online. And then there's some people who, this has happened to many times, they are at a point where they are done. They're tired of having to do these coping strategies. They do not want to they know what's what's in store for them if they go to a Barneys, if they go to I don't know if Dillard's is still around, but Dillard's, you know, they know what's in store for them. And so they're seeing that I'm going to reclaim my power and my own experience as a customer, as a paying and valuable customer. And so I am going to utilize the resources that are available to me and just make online shopping my routine. I do not want to be followed around. I do not want to be ignored. And so my first point of interaction with this brand in terms of trying to complete a transaction is going to be online and I'm going to manage my own customer experience because I have the power to be able to do so. And so this can kind of be seen in parallel with, you know, fight or flight, right? These responses that people kind of they make decisions as to whether or not they have the capacity to fight an injustice. They're going to confront it. They're going to do what they need to do in order to address the problem right then there or kind of decide that, you know what, it's not worth it. I have options. I can leave the environment. I don't have to go into the marketplace and have to deal with this, because one of the things that happens is that, you know, we talk about this notion of retail therapy, right? We go into the marketplace and we're buying stuff and it's like, oh, it's wonderful. But for a group of people, that's not the case. Right? It is a chore. It is work. It is something to not look forward to. Retail and therapy becomes an oxymoron, right? It's like I have to pretty much put on a face and armor myself in order to go into battle, which is basically a marketplace. You know, in most cases it's a store, you know, and you would have thought that someone was getting ready to go into an actual battle because of all of the preparation that has to go into it. But again, going back to this notion of the straws that are breaking the camel's back, the camel's back, is that, you know, going in every time I go into the marketplace, it's potential for another straw to be added onto the camel's back.

Jenna Drenten: Getting a little more on the exit voice loyalty because I think it's great or some great examples and kind of to the bigger picture. Some research the two colleagues and I are working on right now looking at gender and which is yet another form of marginalization in gendered subcultures. So we're looking particularly in the gaming community where it's dominated by largely white men and we find similar exit voice loyalty, but more so that those coping strategies actually have an inadvertent effect on allowing these normative groups to maintain power. So if I withdraw from the market, then I'm I'm allowing the people that don't want me there to win. I am coping personally and protecting myself. But at the same time, that's what is expected, that I don't belong in this group. I don't belong there. And so in order to protect myself, I might leave. But then that just allows this dominant group to be even more dominant. So sometimes these coping strategies like a concept are very individualized. And so they set out to protect themselves, which absolutely is necessary to cope with marketplace trauma. But inadvertently, what we're seeing in our research is that it serves to allow these normative, dominant groups to maintain power and to have these boundaries reiterated over and over again. Or for sort of norms to be maintained, so if the expectation is that let's say you shouldn't wear saggy pants in certain nightclubs, and so then you have to wear a certain outfit that is respectable in a nightclub, but that actually serves to reinforce the bias and trauma in the marketplace. So you're coping by being allowed to then participate in that nightclub, in that market, but by adhering to the norms that were set to keep people like you out. And so those sorts of things then just allow at a collective level for this trauma to keep happening over and over and over again. So even going back to the example of the dance shoes and capezio providing these ballerina shoes, the coping strategy is young women have been dyeing their own shoes for years. And so that is a way to participate in the market. And they found a way around it, but it allows the bigger market, the companies and ballet in general to consistently say, you don't belong here, you can find a way in. But we just want to remind you, you don't belong here because we're not catering to people like you. So these sort of things, it's very dynamic the coping strategies because it happens on such an individual basis and inadvertently serves to reinforce some of these biases that are set up in the systemic structure of our marketplace. So even if you think about things like acquiescing, you just sort of say, you know what, this is the way it is. I'm just going to have to deal with it and I'll learn to get by then. That allows these sort of cultural traumas to happen over and over and over again, because it's what we've come to expect, which I think is so interesting about what's happening right now and been really hopeful about what's happening right now because it's saying we are not going to just have status quo anymore. We as consumers across all different boundaries of race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, all these religion, all these different groups, class that we collectively as icons, research so beautifully shows that that's where the real change comes in, because we can't just say we're just going to get by, we're just going to cope with this. But actually, big changes have to take place so that we don't have to cope with this so people can go in the market and not have to put on a certain outfit or prepare themselves not to lose their temper or to prove that they belong in some way, but that those sorts of things hopefully will be a thing of the past as we move toward more systemic changes in our marketplace.

Rick Sindt: So identities come into play in various different ways and various different environments. And so if I find myself at an advantage because in a certain situation I happen to be a part of an in-group, do either of you have advice on how I can advocate in the marketplace for members who find themselves in an outgroup at that time?

Jenna Drenten: Speak up, step up. Use your privilege. It's not rocket science. I think if you if you see some a black consumer being followed around a store walk up and say, why are you following them? I think that now is the time if you were a white person with privilege in our country, put yourself in an uncomfortable position, use your privilege and step up. I think the more that we can not see ourselves as us and them and those sort of things, but collectively that this is better for everyone if we all have equal participation in the market. But yeah, it's not rocket science or something.

Akon Ekpo: You know, you kind of took the words out of my mouth. I'm like, you know, it requires that people continue to see racism as our problem. To acknowledge it, to know that it exists is still our problem. It's prevalent in multiple situations. It doesn't just happen in one place or another. It's carried around with us wherever we go, whether we're in a retail setting and out to the streets. Right. Use privilege for the betterment of everyone. Right. And then consider how to expand the boundaries of the in-group. Its not just us in them, but how do you actively try to expand the boundaries of the in-group so that it's not just me and someone else, but it's all of us included in this in-group. That in-group needs to look more diverse and more multidimensional and just it needs to look much more heterogeneous for academic term, right, in terms of who's included in this in-group, right. Participate in actively trying to prevent and interrupt these marketplace traumas that occur on a daily basis. And, you know, one way to be able to to be. To be able to understand what those traumas are. There's plenty of resources on, you know, the perspective of those who are traumatized. I mean, even something even on social media, there are hashtags that are that have been created that really much serve as curation of the black experience in different types of marketplaces. There's one for academia, there's one for retail settings. There's one for I'm trying to enjoy a barbecue in a public park, and here we go. Someone's calling the police on me, you know? So you get to know what those perspectives are by utilizing the resources that are available to pretty much everyone because it's being talked about. It's been talked about for many, many, many years in books and social media, in journal articles. There's these things that are out there. It doesn't require someone having to relive the trauma and tell the story of their own experiences when this information has been out there. So, you know, kind of educate yourself on what those experiences are to get an idea of just what life is like and being able to recognize when those traumas are occurring and actively try to interrupt those traumas.

Jenna Drenten: Yeah. I reminded by the famous poem after World War Two that talked about first they came for the Socialists and I did not speak up and first and then they came for the Jews and I did not speak up because I was not a Jew. And I think we see that now. That's the same similar mentality that we have to have, that just because you don't belong to a particular group or identify with a particular group, in the end it will affect you too. And they will come for you, so to speak, and to draw a parallel to that poem that this idea that's something happening over there to other people and so it doesn't affect me that collectively, as Akon was saying that it is our duty as consumers to if we truly want a marketplace that is equitable and free and all of these wonderful things that we claim to have built our market in this country on, then that means that everyone has a right, equal right to participate. And therefore, I should want anyone that is not the same similar to me to have the same privileges and rights and opportunities. So I think spot on this idea of collective action and self-education, there's as a concept many reading lists on anti-racism, there's many op eds on experiences in the market. There's excellent memoirs written by people that have been marginalized in the marketplace and their experiences. And it just takes the initiative to pursue those stories. And as sort of an aside example of how positive changes for a marginalized group can create positive changes for everyone, there are many things in place that are put in place for consumers with disabilities. So, for example, curb cuts in our in our streets and at stoplights that you get the countdown on, you can hear it. You can hear the beeps going, you see the flashing lights, closed captioning. All of these things are put into place for a particular marginalized group, but they actually help all of us that is beneficial to all of us to have a spot in the curve where we can walk down and not worry about tripping so I think the more that we think, if we make changes in our market to benefit groups that do not have full access right now, that actually will help everybody. And we've seen that time and time again.

Rick Sindt: Akon and Jenna. This has been such a wonderful conversation. Do you guys have any parting thoughts you'd like to share with our audience?

Akon Ekpo: None that I haven't already expressed. You know, I feel like, you know, we are in. You know, as sad as this set of events has been it's been illuminating even in the face of what's going on. There is there is hope. Like I was saying, there is something about what's going on now that gives hope that there's going to be momentum in terms of being able to shift the issue of systemic racism to be able to, I don't know if it's going to resolve totally that would be wishful thinking on my part, but there's something about this that good can come out of it. And we need to continue to push. We need to continue to push for the policies that will help to create equality. And dignity. You know, we're talking about human dignity for all.

Jenna Drenten: And I think in line with being faculty members at Loyola Chicago and our commitment to social justice, that as faculty members, staff members, alumni, friends, students, people affiliated with the Jesuit network, that we have such an opportunity to raise our voices and to really dig in and do the work and contribute to positive change in our culture, which is what our entire institution has been built on. So I am like Akon, very hopeful about the future, realistically concerned about what might transpire. But I think we are at this tipping point where it's going to be individual voices acting together as a collective that make the change that we need to see and can really pave the way for what an inclusive and as a concept, dignified marketplace looks like. That is just really very hopeful.

Rick Sindt: That's such a nice note to end on. Thank you both for joining us today. This has been an episode of the Q Talks podcast where we seek to marry the wisdom of the Quinlan community with the issues of today. Our thanks to Akon, Ekpo and Jana Drennan for sharing their contributions. Listeners interested in learning more about trauma and the marketplace are encouraged to read Consumer Equality Rates and the American Marketplace by Geraldine, Rosa Henderson and Marie Pakistan and Jerome D Williams. Or Race in the Marketplace Crossing Critical Boundaries by Guillaume de Johnson, Kevin de Thomas Anthony, Kwame Harrison and Sonia Greer. This book is currently made available for free by the publisher. Our thanks to Dean Kevin Stevens for his generous support of this project. Mat Shiley, our student producer for editing this episode. Loyola School of Communication and WLUW for their continued collaboration. Please take a minute to support us by rating and reviewing our episodes to help expand our reach. Thank you for listening and we hope you join us next time.