Episode 2

What is an NFT, Really?

Transcript

Rick Sindt: So today we're talking about NFTs and Zach you are our resident expert at the Quinlan School of Business. You were recently cited in the news for your knowledge about them. And let's just begin with an overview of what NFTs are. They're very new to our society, and I think a lot of people could use just a general overview of how they work and what they are. 

Zachary Binkley: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me. The NFT movement kind of stemmed from the cryptocurrency movement, and last fall, fall of 2020, I taught a sports finance class to where cryptocurrency was one of our five technologies that we were going to investigate. And when we investigate something, we look at its value. We look at its long term potential, but ultimately we look at the problems that that technology could solve for us. From the cryptocurrency in the sports world, we discovered a concept called nonfungible tokens and what you're seeing in the NFT world now, it's kind of evolved or spiraled a little bit out of control, right now. To where last year there were projects in place that are still around today that really have some longevity based on their roadmaps, based on the utility of the NFT, and these are all things I'll talk about later. But, right now, you're probably hearing or seeing that these NFTs are just fancy JPEGs that are being sold for millions of dollars. That is certainly the case for some NFT projects. Other NFT projects might set out to give you utility to become a fan, or to access an event, or to even work with a charity or do some philanthropy work. So the potential for NFTs is pretty, pretty big. Right now, we're seeing that market being developed through either sports or art. You got music coming along, and there's all kinds of ways that these NFTs are going to be used within society. 

Zachary Binkley: Now what Nfts are, non-fungible token. They don't necessarily have to be a JPEG that can be kind of video assets or pieces of art. There's even 3D renderings. There's virtual reality ones that are coming out. Any kind of digital asset that you would collect is what a non-fungible token ultimately is. The collection part, the uniqueness, is done through the blockchain. Now, when NBA Top Shot, which is what I'm going to talk about the majority of the time today, probably when NBA Top Shot makes the new NFT, that NFT is based around a moment in time of a game. So it might be a LeBron James dunk. Right now, they're making a brand new one for Steph Curry's record-breaking three-pointer the other night. They're only going to make a certain number of those NFTs, and that number is going to be dependent upon a variety of things. That number, that creation number is where the value is kind of coming from. There's only going to be four hundred of these made. Only four hundred people in the world will actually own this and have access to this highlight in their collection. You can still go online and watch it. But in terms of buying and selling it or using it for utility, only four hundred people might have that one moment in their collection. So the blockchain itself, it's a system in which a record of transactions is kind of kept in a ledger and that ledger is open. You can see who buys it, you can see who transfers it. 

Zachary Binkley: This is one way that kind of ethics have been called into question within the blockchain. But when things are unethical, we're able to go back in there and look at the blockchain and see who is sharing things or who is trading things for undervalue things like that. So, the ability for the blockchain to be peer-to-peer, to be transparent. And it assigns you that number of the NFT created. That's ultimately what makes it more than just a JPEG. To access some of these NFTs you do have to obviously own that blockchain number, that number in the blockchain. So if the Steph Curry that they're going to create, if four hundred people end up completing a challenge to mint it, you might end up getting number thirty-four or number of five hundred. And most, most of the time, most projects. The lower number mint you get. The closer you get to number one, the higher the value is. So that's kind of what the NFT is looking like. It is a digital asset. It can be a picture, it can be a video file, it can even be more than that, it can be something that's movable or an object in a game. There's NFTs that will have a lot more utility, and they'll start looking a little bit different once we get into Web three. When we start having more virtual reality spaces or even augmented reality spaces, those kind of utilities will take off. 

Rick Sindt: It seems like NFTs having this blockchain attached is a way to create scarcity in the digital world, which then creates value for those who own these. 

Zachary Binkley: Absolutely. But that's also presented an issue with inclusion, and a lot of these projects have kind of closed off people from entering that market, which is obviously a concern. If you look at Bored Apes Yacht Club, it's the NFT that has monkeys on it. And Post Malone, I believe, just recently bought two of them for seven hundred and fifty million dollars. I know Jimmy Fallon has one, Steph Curry has one, but they only made a certain number of those. And if you own it, the utility is that you're in this club, you're in a Discord chat room with the other owners. You get invited to events and parties across the globe that your only access into that party or that club is through your NFT. So they have created through that scarcity, they have created that uniqueness that that club mentality, which is good for value but also bad for inclusion. I myself will not be joining the Bored Apes Yacht Club anytime soon with that price point. So that's like a project I'm not even looking at because it's not. It doesn't provide me a way to connect to a community. But the scarcity is what ultimately gives it its value, because if the NBA Top Shot is going to hold a challenge and you have to put together a combination of your NFTs to complete that challenge, the total number of completions will be determined about how many were created on the blockchain and if only nine thousand were created, then there's only nine thousand possible winners of that challenge or that competition. 

Zachary Binkley: So this speaks to NFTs in terms of how we use them, the utility of it. The utility is where I'm getting excited because it's really limitless. You can think of utility as the Willy Wonka Golden Ticket, right? The golden ticket itself is not worth anything if it doesn't come with access to the tour of the facility. So these NFTs, if they're by themselves, if you can't do anything with them, and if you can't exchange them for merchandise or enter yourself to create more NFTs or enter the NFT to raffle off and get more in-game tickets, things like that, this is not going to go as well as you think it is. We want to do things with our NFTs. Just having static art is good enough for some people. I'll kind of talk about the art side here in a second, but the utility is where it really has the potential to take off. There's all kinds of utility surrounding merchandise, MLB with Candy, their recent development, they were able to connect an NFT with real life merchandise through Fanatics Apparel Company or licensing company. So things like that? 

Rick Sindt: So, yeah, let's talk more about different examples of utility. I know you collect NFTs. What sort of collections do you have and how do they provide utility for you? 

Zachary Binkley: Yeah. So two projects that I will talk about directly on utility one being NBA Top Shot and the utility there is that they run these challenges. And the challenge is you might have last night's challenge flash challenge was the top 10 offensive rebounders from tonight's nine games. And if you have those 10 in your collection, they give you a free pack to open up more NFTs tomorrow. So what that challenge does is it incentivizes you to keep your collection and not sell it. Because the better your collection is, the wider range it is, the better your odds are of completing that challenge. But what it also does is it moves the marketplace. You're able to go on there and based on last night's stats in the games, you can go acquire these NFTs for three dollars, five dollars, whatever it may be, until you complete that challenge. Once you've completed that challenge and submit it, then they give you either a new card or a new NFT or a new pack of NFTs. There's always some kind of reward or reason to complete the challenge. Over the summer, what they did during the NBA Finals was if you had five moments from this the Phoenix Suns and five moments from Milwaukee Bucks, and there were certain moments, they weren't just randomized moments. If you completed that, you entered yourself into a raffle that was, I think they had like 15 tickets, full paid travel to the NBA Finals, and they had a suite for those individuals from Top Shot who held that. 

Zachary Binkley: Now your odds, right, aren't very good at that, but there are some utility. There is, they're working on a game where you can use your NFTs to do like fantasy sports kind of stuff. So the NBA Top Shot, that's been kind of the one that started it for a lot of people. It's how I got into NFTs. The system there, it shows the highlight, it shows the stats, it shows the story of the NFT. And then they've said they've put it into different sets as well. Just like traditional basketball cards where you have a set based on the artwork or a set based on the moment itself, like buzzer-beaters or things like that. Another project that I'm really having fun with. It is not perfect. It has a lot of room to grow is Zed Run and Zed Run is a digital horse-based NFT, and I grew up on a farm. We had two ponies growing up. They didn't do much for us to other than just, you know, be pets, pretty much. But I remember when I was in 4-H growing up and 4-H, we did chickens and rabbits. We never got into like the horse race. We didn't kind of have that kind of money or that kind of acreage, to be honest, to do that. 

Zachary Binkley: So we kind of stuck to the lower level of farming animals, if you will. But we were always around horse racing. It's hard not to go to the county fair or state fair or not see horse racing. So I've known enough about it growing up, and it's not something I ever envisioned myself doing. Like, I'm not going to have a life goal of owning a horse racing farm in Kentucky or somewhere and doing that. But this project is basically digital horse racing, and the NFT that you have is a horse and that horse can be raced. You can enter into races and there's tournaments that you can enter it into. And there are ways that I primarily do or mostly do the free races only. But the horses do have the ability to enter other races and actually make money for your stable and make money for your organization that you've created. I've joked with my dad because, you know, he still has the somewhat of a farm back home. He's got one goat and probably 12 chickens, no rabbits. But I've told them, you know, he's he spent more money on feed on his chickens in the last year than I have on my digital horse. And then I'm looking at the environmental impact as well. Like my digital horse farm doesn't really cost any money in terms of acreage or upkeep or logistics or travel and things like that. 

Zachary Binkley: So I'm able to really kind of participate in the sport of horse racing, which is something I've never done in my life. And the horses itself, they're NFTs. I can buy and sell them just as I do. I can make more horses through my stable. You have the ability to do that and that platform is fun. It's very engaging. They have been running sponsorships just like they would like at Churchill Downs. There's all kinds of business sponsorships that are coming out there and that really speaks to the gamification part of the NFTs. And gamification is really where I'm interested in with utility. Gamification is defined as basically taking something that traditionally isn't a game, and we're adding gaming elements to it. I like to think my example I use in class for gamification is you wouldn't think of McDonald's and eating McDonald's as a game, and it's not a game. But when they run the monopoly, you know, sponsorship or event, it turns the act of eating McDonald's into a game. It gamified it which brings motivation, it brings engagement, and brings things like that. So the utility of these NFTs connecting it to the gamification element is where this is really starting to take off in certain places. NFTs that don't have utility or don't have a gamified model, they kind of lose steam and lose focus and lose interest, at least in some of the marketplace, 

Rick Sindt: This gamification piece is what's standing out to me the most in our conversation, because in talking to other people who are not as well versed in nonfungible tokens as you, I think there's this assumption that like because it's on the blockchain, because it's related to cryptocurrency in some way, it's for like rich, wealthy people as a way to enter or to have access to it. But what you're describing is something that you just do for enjoyment. Maybe you get a nice experience out of it, but it doesn't actually have to cost you a lot of money in order to enter this space and to be a part of it. 

Zachary Binkley: Right. Absolutely. There's some projects that are focused on being broader than, say, the Bored Ape Yacht Club, right? Bored Ape Yacht Club, I think there's like nine thousand of them and they're not making any more and they're going for millions of dollars and that's set. Another project, Suessibles, which is an NFT project based on Dr. Seuss books, starts off at five dollars a pack and that five dollars gets you five NFTs. And the NFTs for the Suessibes are little pieces of artwork that tell stories from within the Dr. Seuss universe, and they've created sticker books in the app that allows you to collect those NFTs. And as you collect more NFTs, you unlock the story. So it's kind of like a new way of storytelling. You can have the NFT of Dr. Seuss on your phone. I'm imagining eventually they're going to add some kind of gamification element to that to make it a game or even add augmented reality to where that book can come alive through a device. And that project is five bucks. I mean, it's very intentional in how broad they are trying to make that product, and that's good. The high end stuff. The utility ultimately becomes the high end stuff itself, the price tag itself, because if you can move it, if you can move an NFT for millions of dollars than no other utility matters. So there is a wide range in this. NBA Top Shot moments you can join right now for nine dollars that get to your first pack. And then I think the lowest marketed moment right now is like two dollars. 

Zachary Binkley: And to complete a challenge, those challenge completions can range you either from 40 to 50 dollars. I think the one right now is probably valued at about one hundred and ninety, so they fluctuate in price and they fluctuate and prizes as well. Something that's... The Steph Curry completion or challenge completion. I think it costs about right now to complete it will be four thousand one hundred dollars. So that's obviously not everyone's price range. Only four hundred people are going to be able to complete that challenge at four thousand one hundred dollars, which means only four hundred of those Steph Curry moments will be made, which will make it more rare and its value will be higher. But the gamification element, when we're able to do stuff with these NFTs, that's where it's going to get interesting. That's where it's going to get more fun. That's where I think the value will ultimately hold. The gaming industry has yet to even jump in yet. We look at DLC, we look at Roblox, we look at all kinds of the microtransactions that are happening. You might have a Fortnite and you have all these skins for your Fortnite. Those skins will ultimately be NFT someday and you'll own that NFT. You'll be able to use that skin in the game. And if you want to sell that skin to someone else on the blockchain, you're going to be able to do that. So the gaming impact here is coming, and I think that's where a lot of the value is going to hold. 

Rick Sindt: Let's move from utility, from this broader topic of utility, into the more specific ways people can see it as investment because you've kind of wandered into that area. So what are some trends you're seeing? How do you use it? If a person wants to approach this as an investment, what should they expect? 

Zachary Binkley: Yeah, I always start off this conversation with anyone, whether it's students or friends and family like this is not financial advice. This NFT space is different for every collector. There are people who would deem themselves as collectors and not investors. So I kind of have two rules right off the bat with investing in the spaces. Don't put more money into it than you can't risk to lose and two is always try to buy stuff you love. Even if the price goes down for the NFT, if you have some sentimental value to or attachment to it. If you love that piece of art, that's going to be valued with you more than something else. So sticking to that, there is the ability with these NFTs to track them as investments. Most of the major projects like NBA Top Shot, Bored Apes, things like that, they have data analytics attached to them. There's third party websites that are tracking all kinds of data and you're able to see the market and whether it's up or down, whether the liquidity of the NFT if it is in high demand right now or people trying to get it? And if it's not, you know, people will keep selling it at the basement price. So the investment side of it, it's interesting because there's some projects that are kind of set up and designed to make that quick buck and then they're gone. 

Zachary Binkley: And that's why I'm telling you, look at the utility, look at the bench, or the roadmap. Are they trying to do something with their NFT or are they trying to make you a quick dollar? That's something that is kind of apparent with some of these new ones. A lot of the profile picture ones where you're just buying a picture of a piece of art as a profile picture. We need more utility than just a profile picture. So the investment side of it, for me, it ties back to like basketball and baseball cards. You do have the ability to sell them. Some of them do bounce in price. They get up in price. You might want to sell that at that time. But a lot of collecting a lot of the empty is finding what you love and building that collection. Something investment-wise, I'll talk here a little bit. I invested money in the WNBA this year, I became a season ticket holder with the Chicago sky. It was my second championship of the year. I'm a season ticket holder for the Milwaukee Bucks as well, so I saw both championships this year. 

Zachary Binkley: But for both teams, I have invested in their full team sets. I have all the moments in NBA Top Shot from this entire year for both Milwaukee Bucks and the Chicago Sky. What that does for me, investment wise, is right now it's kind of even Milwaukee Bucks are still in their season, but the NBA has tapered off value wise because they're not in season right now. I'm still holding on to them. To me, there's sentimental value there. I was at some of the games that were in these moments, so I'm actually in like the highlight itself and that matters to me. But they're also providing us with utility for completing those team sets and the gamification model within Top Shot. My collector score will actually get multiplied if I have a whole team set. It will actually reward me if I, if I do complete a team set. So we talk about this being the currency of fandom and as a season ticket holder for both Chicago Sky and Milwaukee Bucks, there is going to be this connection between a fan in the stands and a fan virtually. Two years ago, during the pandemic, I was able to go to one of the bubble games and I was sitting courtside in Orlando. But on the digital screen, I was at home through Zoom, but my face was on the wall in the gym that they played. 

Zachary Binkley: That experience was given to me because I was a season ticket holder. We can see the same kind of access being given through NFTs. If you have a team set, you can have access to, say, a Zoom interview with a player, or you might get 15 percent off in the team store. When those type of utilities start happening, this investment is going to look a little bit different than, say, the 50 bucks I put into it, right? So the currency of fandom is really what, on the sports side, what we're looking into. The same thing can be said with music NFTs and they're thinking about ways of creating moments of time from concerts that you would be able to get after you went to the concert. And some people might not be willing to invest in that because they invested in the ticket itself and they were at the event, and they don't need to have that, that digitized memory. But if it's your favorite artist and you want to create that collection and show off how big of a fan you are, this is going to be kind of one way to do it. 

Rick Sindt: So it's been nice to hear about the utility and knowing and seeing and having you explain how it's beyond more than just profit, making money, hoping that you know the value raises. How it's about things that you enjoy and having access to things that will enrich your life. In the introduction, you talked about how NFTs can be used for good, you mentioned philanthropy. So what are some other applications we're seeing in a more like socially responsible, social impact space? 

Zachary Binkley: Yeah. So there's obviously some concern and viably so. I think it was week two in the semester, I introduce them to NFTs this semester and they immediately kind of my students kind of asked questions about the environmental impact, and I was so proud of that, right? This is great. Obviously, the concern is there everything we do for moving forward has to have that, that question asked. And we do see the environmental impact being negative because of the connection to crypto and cryptocurrencies being mined and that whole process not necessarily a good endeavor for the environment. The environmental impact that we see with cryptocurrency does share the same concern with the NFT space because those two are still closely connected. You can buy NFTs with crypto, so anything that's negative of crypto kind of comes along with NFTs. However, I have yet to make a purchase with crypto for my NFT, so I'm able to just use U.S. dollars to acquire these. So NFTs do have that concern with the environment. Students brought that up. I was very proud and had that discussion with them, and we started talking about that utility side and how an NFT of four hundred can limit people. Could an NFT of four million enhance people? Can we get that gated access to actually more people? Is that a way to be more inclusive and more diverse in our offerings? So there are some NFT projects that set out to do that. They raise money. 

Zachary Binkley: They mint NFTs with the utility of a real world application. There's projects like House One Family Forever where you buy a digital house, but that digital house is actually created in real in the real world for a housing community that needs it. So you are kind of taking your NFT and moving it into the real world to solve a problem. There's Open Water Project that's selling NFTs and profits go back to providing more clean water. There is the ability I'm thinking in my head. There is this idea of using NFTs as a gated access point, and I talked about Willy Wonka and the Golden Ticket. There was only 10 golden tickets. 10 people get access to the tour. You can almost look at NFTs in Higher ED as a ticket for tuition. And just, hypothetically, what you can think about doing is I know the Sister Jean bobblehead is very popular and everyone wants that Sister Jean bobblehead. But the bobblehead sitting on my shelf here and it doesn't do anything for me, right? It's just sitting there and it bobbles, bobbles its head, an NFT based around college based around Sister Jean. Maybe we rally or maybe raffled off free tuition that's attached to that NFT, and we sold NFTs to raise the money, and that money gets put into a scholarship fund. And then that NFT is what ultimately gives that tuition back. Having that gated access, being able to use that as a utility, is one idea. 

Rick Sindt: To make sure I understand with this example, what you're saying is folks could buy this Sister Jean non-fungible token, and it's almost like they enter a raffle for the opportunity to get a full-ride. And the money raised through this raffle would be the funds that are used to provide this full ride to one lucky lottery winner, essentially. 

Zachary Binkley: Yes, absolutely. And then that Sister Jean NFT could come in different tiers and maybe a lower level tier. A gold tier could be tuition. Where a maroon tier could be tickets to a basketball game. You can change that utility up and give that access to a lot of people while also trying to maybe partner with area schools. And maybe these three NFTs that are for the free tuition will be sent to this school for this year or this community college for this year, and it'd be a way to kind of connect the community. But it's unique, right? That blockchain is what connects it to the individual person, and that individual person can turn around and use that NFT as utility in a variety of ways. So that's kind of where for NFTs, for good we've been investigating ways NFTs connect to logistics. My Sports Facility Management class, we obviously look at ticket sales, we look at security entrances, we look at all kinds of logistical setups that go on with managing an event. And students come up with a lot of NFT ideas, either from providing exclusive experiences at games and events through the NFT access point or even just digitizing and moving our entire ticket system into an NFT system. That's going to work, that's there. It just kind of like the next evolution here. 

Rick Sindt: So we've talked about ways that NFTs could be leveraged for philanthropy. You just touched on ways it could be used for logistical solutions. What are some of the other projects you have been paying attention to? 

Zachary Binkley: This, this whole industry? NFTs, you know, I primarily stay within sports and we're sports merges with tech. But this is going to be interesting for a lot of art projects, either local art projects, local artists who have been selling NFTs or things like the movie industry and Marvel and things like that looking at NFTs for that kind of space. The thing that I'm focused on. Within NFTs moving forward is Web three, Web 1.0 that was just a static website, Web 2.0 is what we're kind of in right now or we are in and we're moving forward moving out of it. Web two was was us interacting with the web and Web three is going to be us like in the web and the web is going to be something physical and or as physical as it can be. That's where you get your metaverses. That's where you get your virtual reality. We got augmented reality glasses and devices coming out, probably next summer. So that next step, that next evolution from web two to Web three is where this NFT movement is going to find its home. In Web three, You can think of crypto as the currency that we use in Web three. NFTs will be the objects that we own in Web three. 

Zachary Binkley: So I have right now a couple of VR galleries that I've created using my own NFTs that are in my collection, my students in all my classes. This fall, my students all used spatial.io to create their own virtual reality galleries, and their galleries were a collection of either their in-class work or in the facility class they had to create a sports museum based on a social issue of their choosing. When we start seeing these objects, these NFTs in virtual spaces and you can only put objects in virtual spaces that you own through the blockchain. I think that's where the value is going to continue to go up, and we're going to start making more sense of how these are used. Nike just signed as part of their brand, a digital NFT shoe company, and they've already partnered with Roadblocks they have, in the video game itself, they have a place that, a shop, that you can go and buy Nike merchandise Nike gear for your avatars. That's the next step with NFTs is actually using it in Web three. 

Zachary Binkley: Right now, if you're just right clicking and saving JPEGs, you can do that. You can change your profile picture to whatever born app you want. But in about a year, a year and a half, that's going to be obsolete and that JPEG is not going to be usable in the future of the web. And we got to think about kind of how we value the web and virtual spaces versus kind of our in-person life. I have a lot of art hanging in my house that I've bought over the years. No one sees it. The only person who sees it to me and my dog and my cat, and it has value to me. But no one in the real world really sees the art in my house. You can go on my Instagram and look at what NFTs you can look at, what profile picture I have. So we do have not necessarily valued the digital assets more, but there are more eyes on our digital collections than there are in our private home collections. So when we start going into Web three and these virtual spaces, ultimately what you collect and what you own will become sort of your identity. And that's just the kind of a shift in what we're experiencing now within society. 

Rick Sindt: I think as we draw to a close, I want to go back just a little bit. You talked about you can go and save as JPEGs all you want right now. Put up Bored Ape as your profile picture. It's not an NFT, but you can do it and you said it's going to become obsolete soon. And I'm wondering if you can expand on that because what it brought to mind for me was when the family that made that viral YouTube video Charlie Bit My Finger. They sold that off as an NFT in the last year and then they took the video off of YouTube. And I remember thinking that that last step wasn't really necessary. And so I'm wondering if maybe you can, like make the connection there, between JPEGs becoming obsolete and like when that happens, will videos like Charlie Bit My Finger actually have to come down or what? 

Zachary Binkley: Yeah, right. The cool thing about owning a Bored Ape Yacht Club isn't the fact that your profile picture shows that the value the coolness thing of it is that you are in a Discord chat room with celebrities, or you are able to go to a dinner party in New York where these celebrities have this and own it. That's where this is moving. If you look at NBA Top Shot, what they recently did if you own a team that you are now in a private team Discord, which allows you to have discussions and community around the NFTs that you own. And that's more, that's way greater than just right clicking and saving a JPEG, right? We are slowly. Through the blockchain, we're slowly changing our minds on how we own things in our ownership of digital assets. And without the blockchain, this whole ownership of digital assets can't happen. And that's why that technology is connected here. That's why it's it's given the NFT the legs to do what it's doing. We've had the ability to make collections and right click and pirate information all the time. But that ledger, that blockchain ledger that shows your identity connected to the ownership of that number is what's going to be the gatekeeper for Web three, and you're not going to be able to put your NFT in a space without having that access point. So people, you can if you want to change your profile picture right now to Bored Ape, you could right click and do that and you might get some new followers and things, but you're not really going to get the benefit or the utility out of actually having that blockchain number. 

Rick Sindt: Zach, thank you for your time today. It was very interesting talking to you about this new technology, societal artifact, cultural thing that we have going on. Is there any like final words or thoughts you would want people who listen to the podcast to know as they try to understand NFTs and what they mean moving forward? 

Zachary Binkley: Yeah, just keep in mind that the NFT boom and the creation of this, this is an interdisciplinary effort. This is art merging with Fintech, merging with society. So there is going to be problems. There's going to be issues that all those industries have individually show up in this merge industry. We're creating something new that doesn't mean that there's no new issues with this or there's no issues with it. It's almost like the issues that are following the other industries are falling into NFTs as well. So as much as I love interdisciplinary efforts and it's the product of the interdisciplinary effort, it gives us such great new ideas and innovations. But we still have to be mindful and cognizant of the issues that other industries are having because we're experiencing those as well. 

Rick Sindt: Great. Thank you. That was a really nice place to end. It was really nice to talk to you again today, and thanks for coming on. 

Zachary Binkley: Thank you.